More importantly, if F-ConPo is so interested in the influence of digital technology on composition, how do their efforts interface with other disciplines and efforts made by scholars to understand these new environments? Gregory Ulmer, for instance, and many others working in rhetoric, composition, and invention have devoted critical and scholarly work in efforts to understand the effects of digital technology on composition and literacy--or electracy, as Ulmer puts it--describing the effect of reading and writing in digital contexts. You'd think that F-ConPo would go further to describe their project and to show what their manipulations of digital environments might contribute to an already established body of knowledge.
As much as I admire Goldsmith's archival work at Ubu (and I think digital technology is suited extremely well for archival purposes), the following, posted today at the Poetry Foundation, is just childish when viewed in the context of Ulmer's--and others'--work:
Our immersive digital environment demands new responses from writers. What does it mean to be a poet in the Internet age? These two movements, Flarf and Conceptual Writing, each formed over the past five years, are direct investigations to that end. And as different as they are, they have surprisingly come up with a set of similar solutions. Identity, for one, is up for grabs. Why use your own words when you can express yourself just as well by using someone else’s? And if your identity is not your own, then sincerity must be tossed out as well. Materiality, too, comes to the fore: the quantity of words seems to have more bearing on a poem than what they mean. Disposability, fluidity, and recycling: there’s a sense that these words aren’t meant for forever. Today they’re glued to a page but tomorrow they could re-emerge as a Facebook meme. Fusing the avant-garde impulses of the last century with the technologies of the present, these strategies propose an expanded field for twenty-first-century poetry. This new writing is not bound exclusively between pages of a book; it continually morphs from printed page to web page, from gallery space to science lab, from social spaces of poetry readings to social spaces of blogs. It is a poetics of flux, celebrating instability and uncertainty.
Much of this is class-A, car salesman b. s. Notice how Goldsmith defines the terms and doesn't leave room for other options or responses. "Why use your words when you can use someone else's?" As if "self-expression" remains the only goal in these contexts, a weird assumption many would refute outright.* The lack of care given to the articulation of these arguments closes conversation to others who might have something besides self-expression in mind as a goal for poetry. Perhaps the self might be put to the service of others in public efforts to negotiate contested political or social spaces. Rodrigo Toscano's Collapsible Poetics Theater comes to mind as just such a public and social art that negates the self-expressivity of the artist in order to address an audience and the shared concerns of a living environment composed of living people, printed words, and digital documentation (Toscano's project can be viewed through these different media and proposes a much more radical and satisfying approach to the complex and multidimensional spaces we inhabit collectively).The assumption that words "are your own" is naive, too. I wonder who, writing anything worth paying attention to, really believes words are their own today? Why would F-ConPo want to include those people in its audience? We can't speak to everyone, so define and delineate an audience. The issue of property and ownership has been vetted for more than a century thanks to Marx--in that context at least, and Kenneth Burke has much to say, too, about property--where it begins and ends.
Anyway, a lot of these claims are bogus--probably all of them. And the fusion of the avant-garde of the past with the technology of the present doesn't contribute anything new, though it does, as Goldsmith says, "expand" the field. But how much more expansion can anyone take? Hasn't the last year shown anyone paying attention that globalism and expansion are over? Dead? Done? No doubt there will be new metaphors to describe how we are being fucked over by powerful systems (see Matthew Taiibi's recent article on Goldman Sachs in Rolling Stone for recent examples), but expansion won't be one of them. All Goldsmith seems to be saying here is that poetry will continue doing what it's been doing but we'll get digital and google up information and write blogs. Well, uh, no kidding? Just like everyone else.
Until F-ConPo can articulate something that distinguishes what it does from others, I wonder who would possibly listen? At best, such efforts create a distracting show, while at worst, they eat up a lot of bandwidth and natural resources in order to promote a group of people who don't really seem to care about poetry, but about the social atmosphere and its manipulations--the market. A market based on an old model of globalization. Anyway, it's cute that Poetry Magazine let the unicorns enter the current issue. It's all simulacra now, of course--words pretending to be poems written by poets who pretend to be savvy about digital contexts for their compositions while ignoring ongoing conversations in other fields that might actually help define useful terms and strategies for poetry. Like so much in America, F-ConPo is an invention of a market for people looking for an easy tonic. The marketing plan is semi-genius, and has been successful, particularly as so many grad students get their rocks off on F-ConPo. Anyhoo, it's interesting to watch the anxiety level over Slow Poetry among the F-ConPo folk, and I wonder what this anxiousness says about their "projects," particularly as they seem to have little to say about poems.
*Indeed, I find it odd that F-ConPo actually amounts to just another expressivist program of writing, albeit sifted through machines a little. It's like they're into self-expression, but they want others to do the expressing for them in an ultimately narcissistic gesture on the order of hey, everyone, look at me!
107 comments:
"F-Con Po"
Convenient-- and fun to say out loud.
It's been tiresome for quite some years now to say (and write!) L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E.
F-Con Po, its spawn, is much better!
Kent
I'm not really one of the "F-ConPo folks" at all. In fact, my poetry has tended to have a lot more in common with the stuff in your feature at big bridge than with flarf or conpo.
The comment about my anxiety level seems a bit odd, not sure what you're getting at there. I guess I do have a good bit of anxiety, but not so much over slowpo. Whatever though, I've made my petty digs too, though they've usually fallen among direct and honest criticisms. I'm at least trying to engage here, anxious or no.
Iain, after K. Silem Mohammad agreed with another commentator on your blog that my Slow Poetry introduction "was completely & ridiculously vapid & dishonest," and that I am "full of shit in a big way," you accused the slow poetry "community" of "carrying" "animosity"toward poetry, or something like that. (See: https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4936176559695627707&postID=4260728830321753164) So I was being polite by referring to this as anxiety, when in fact, aggressive, paranoid, ax-grinding is what's taking place--at least in part--on your blog.
For other examples of anxiety, see KSM's comments at http://evenslowerpoetry.blogspot.com/
Excellent post, Dale. See my small contribution to the issue here. It's funny to find Iain claiming that "conceptual poetry removes the poem from the world of Products" while addressing the appearance of conceptual writing in Poetry magazine, a publication costing $35 a year delivered to your door....
Come on Dale,
We've all used some hyperbole when discussing this. By "animosity", I only meant that there seem to be an odd number of digs toward flarf and conpo. I'm still not quite sure why you talk about them so much more than, say, MLA programs, which seem to fit what you're against a lot more. Or poets that actually sell a lot of books.
I'm honestly baffled by you're saying that I've been "aggressive, paranoid" and "ax-grinding". And they seem like odd words to use in context of your calling me out about saying you've got "animosity" towards whoever. I haven't talked any real shit about you and I'm not sure how I can be blamed for what's said in my comment section.
Do you want me to stop posting responses? You seem mad, which was not my intention in any way.
Joseph,
the issue can also be obtained here, using stolen wireless, on a cheap 10-year-old laptop, which, for instance, is how I roll.
Iain said:
>Come on, Dale. We've all used some hyperbole when discussing this. By "animosity", I only meant that there seem to be an odd number of digs toward flarf and conpo.
Um, Iain, instead of "flarf and conpo," that should be "F-Con Po," the correct term to be used from now on.
Then Iain said:
>I'm still not quite sure why you talk about them so much more than, say, MLA programs, which seem to fit what you're against a lot more.
Iain, verily, when one talks about Flarf, one also talks about the MLA, which is the target upon which the batting eyes of the F-Con Po folks are now set. The AWP is old news. The MLA (We're comin' Ma and Pa Langpo!)is next! So no need to speak of the MLA "instead of" F-Con Po...
Kent
Iain, of course you're responsible for what's said on your blog--by you or others. I don't think I sound "mad" by the way. Just pointing out that whether you endorse it or not--KSM and Flarf used you to rehearse their anxieties. It's difficult, you must admit, for some of us to understand your position given the animosity behind those comments you chose to say nothing about. But it's cool. I got no beef with you. And these words are distracting from the larger issues....
Thanks for the info Kent,
I'll probably never get close to an MLA program (I never graduated from high school), so I hate to think I could have gotten caught up in a vast conspiracy to take over these programs merely by liking to read a certain type of poetry.
Dale,
In that case, I apologize for other people talking shit about you on my blog. For future reference though, I don't censor or police my comment section. People can say whatever they want, and I won't necessarily publicly comment about whether I agree or disagree.
Iain, that's fine: I don't censor things either. But I'm held accountable for the contexts that are created on my blog--whether I like it or not.
Iain,
I didn't say (and didn't mean to imply) you were part of F-ConPo!
(Though you have to admit that KSM's comments were rather mean and sophomoric-- not that there is anything new with mean and sophomoric language when it comes to the F-ConPo's...)
But here is a question. Why do you think it is that the F-ConPo's seem to be terrified to openly debate issues related to their poetry with critics who are eager to engage?
For example, it is by now well-known that F-ConPo people, so eager to mock everyone in their purview-- both poets and the largely working-class people they steal from with glee-- ban critics from their blogs or else censor their perfectly thoughtful posts (the latest case being just the other day)? Or then, when a discussion starts, conveniently absent themselves from the scene?
Let me suggest something, and I say this as someone who has been around the poetry block a few times: The SILENCE has not a little to do with what I said above about the MLA!
I know that sounds completely cryptic and even funny, Iain. But the Po-biz scene has become completely cryptic and quite funny...
And we all love it.
Kent
Wow, Iain. A pseudo-intellectual and a thief to boot. Ain't you special...
Iain, sorry, I wrote my last note to you from Hoa's computer. I must be doin' F-ConPo. But, for the record, I'm the one who said:
Iain, that's fine: I don't censor things either. But I'm held accountable for the contexts that are created on my blog--whether I like it or not.
Dale,
I admit "accountable" was the wrong word to use. It was being assumed that I fully endorsed specific comments that were made, which is what I object to. But sure, I'm "accountable" for the chaos that might come from not censoring comments.
though, completely writing off some of the (what I at least hope is) more thoughtful criticism in my blog just because comment sections tend to contain more candid language does seem a little dramatic.
Kent said: "For example, it is by now well-known that F-ConPo people, so eager to mock everyone in their purview-- both poets and the largely working-class people they steal from with glee."
Kent, can you tell us exactly who these "working-class" people are and how you know who they are?
Jill Ivey
Checked out the Flarf/Conceptual portfolio that's now online. My scorecard: I dig Kasey's poem, Jordan's two short poems, Sharon Mesmer's poem. A ten second description of my favorite Flarf poems: the best ones are like the catalog of ships in Homer, or such: just a kind of joy and bewilderment that all these terms and objects and reference points exist. The more successful Flarf poems, I think, come down to a question of style: picking up and joining together the right reference points to make a kind of amoral gleefulness in their strange arrangement. The worst Flarf poems almost always have some kind of pre-packaged snicker, the sense of "I'm intending to do something not okay, and these words and lines are not-okay enough to fit my intentions." That gets boring really quickly. I found the other Flarf poems in the portfolio pretty uniformly uninteresting; upon first reading, the main trait I detected was just irreverence. Irreverence and reverence both are equally deadly, I think, if they don't lead the poet to some kind of linguistic energy.
I'm actually pretty excited by Jordan's short poems; I hope he's putting supposed Flarf techniques to use for these witty little poems. My biggest aesthetic beef with Flarf has been the relatively limited range of its effects, like a band that only plays power ballads or ironic heavy metal ABBA covers. Matching a primarily cut-and-paste method with a dadaist sensibility (however mediated by decades) seems like a natural first instinct, but I do wonder sometimes at the uniformity of much (not all, of course) of the Flarf poems I get around to reading (I must admit that these are the first ones I've gotten around to reading in the last couple years--thus my happiness at what seems like a possible new, interesting direction in Jordan's stuff, and a recognition that I still prefer the same Flarf stylists of a few years ago when I read a medley of them now).
I found the seriousness of the explanatory tags to the conceptual pieces sort of hilarious. Which sounds catty, and might be, because I still can't stand KG for more than a paragraph at a time. But, I'm also a pretty big fan of the other conceptualist people featured (though I don't know Vanessa Place's work), especially Bok and Dworkin and Fitterman in particular. But I just don't know, the work featured here seems like a really limited and pre-fab notion of what 'conceptual' should look like, as if the conceptual has to be, as KG puts it, dry. Is that the future of poetry, taking cues from a cartoon version of the art world from 40 years ago? Dionysius v. Apollo? I can't wait to read the whole book, Conceptual Poetry is from Mars, Flarf is from Venus.
By temperament, I tend to be against things like Flarf, except: you know, sometimes some really interesting poems arise from that neck of the desert.
I find Bok interesting because his ideas are almost always very interesting, and often really, really witty. And there's a virtuosity to what he does that I can't help but dig. Fitterman, in total contrast I guess to the work present in the portfolio, ends up somehow creating oddly beautiful or haunting works. KG is probably the most famous of the folks partly because he appears to have the most publicity friendly personality, but also because he is so good at recycling art world moves, so critics know how they *should* respond to a work of his before he even creates one, since he's basically never messing with the underlying structures, just adapting them.
Tony
I suppose I would also want to juxtapose the total ease of KG's sense of conceptual with what Patrick Herron has been up to as of late, such as in his Embedded:
http://www.thefanzine.com/articles/poetry/295/lucifer_poetics-_the_state_of_nc_part_2/8
Joseph,
I'm sorry I don't have enough degrees to participate in an online conversation about poetry. I hadn't realized credentials were required to have opinions.
I thought you were anti-Academia, and a way nicer person.
dude, we've had some tense conversations, but I've never known you to stoop to such a low personal attack. "Pseudo-intellectual"? I'm not trying to fool anyone into thinking I'm someone I'm not. What the fuck?
Tony:
Thanks for your thoughtful take on the actual poems in the f-con-po issue -- i look forward to reading it, once i've girded myself up for the journey.
it's things like this that give me pause:
Identity, for one, is up for grabs. Why use your own words when you can express yourself just as well by using someone else’s? And if your identity is not your own, then sincerity must be tossed out as well. Materiality, too, comes to the fore: the quantity of words seems to have more bearing on a poem than what they mean. Disposability, fluidity, and recycling: there’s a sense that these words aren’t meant for forever.
Mostly it's the same glib sweeping statements that KG made about the avant garde on the poetry.org blog a while back, which as dale points out really leave little room for debate or difference of opinion and plaster over whole swaths of historical poetry and current practice without blinking.
Probably there's no need to point out to anyone that neither flarf, nor conceptual poetry, nor langpo before that, came up with the idea that "indentity's up for grabs." Playing with and exploring different "identities," obliterating one's own identity in the process of writing, engaging with fluid concepts of identity---all these have been around as long as there's been poetry.
Christ!
Nor does it follow that "sincerity must be tossed out the window." This is simply an error, perhaps a willful one, coming from a person who apparently knows nothing about poetry (maybe i've got a burr up my ass about this because i was reading about, and reading, wyatt this afternoon).
The best flarf pieces i've read -- such as g. sullivan's ppl in a depot -- manage to fuck with identity and maintain some sense of sincerity -- even if it, like the words themselves, are borrowed. what was it pessoa wrote about a poet being someone who fakes sincerity so well it's better than the real thing?
or something like that.
Part I (this “comment” is in two parts, since Blogger tells me I am too long-winded):
Dale,
I understand the rhetoric of your point, to question Kenny's claims for the technological difference that supposedly sets off, and conjoins, Conceptual and Flarf-po:
"Why is googling a poem any different from walking around a city and capturing images, found texts, overheard conversations, etc, in a notebook and then later re-organizing this material into a poem?"
But I would argue that these are in fact very different writing actions. That's probably the whole point of my piece for Slopo: human language needs something to approximate, or it chokes. I use "approximate" in a root sense--of "drawing near."
Thus I tend to be more interested in what the Conceptual poets are up to than in Flarf. (Getting close to a machine, fucking with systems.) While maybe I'm just not getting what it is the Flarf poets are drawing near to in their work (apart from one another). But admittedly I haven't paid much attention to the whole ruckus; I've been distracted.
I take the Slow Food comparison at the level of physiology rather than of lifestyle. (Though I do think the "Slow Food" movement gets a bad rap by folks who haven't bothered to dig below its glossy media profile.) Slow food is food with *fiber.* Fiber is analog, organic-material--it slows the system down. (Yeah, Kenny, let's talk "material"!) You're more likely to get it by walking around the block than by Googling.
I'm not saying walking around the block guarantees fibrous poetry. And I'm not saying a Flarf poem can't have fiber. But I WOULD propose that whatever fiber makes its way into poetry originates in some kind of approximation that ultimately has to be humbling for the poet. (And, sure, Iain, I agree that righteousness kills the fiber as much as anything else.) More often than not this approximation involves the body, venturing into space, to confront all sorts of differences (bodily, gendered, cultural, linguistic, economic, species) and to experience the resistance in ways more than digital.
(So, the anxiety and animosity in these comment streams strikes me as an artificial attempt to reinsert difference into the smooth space of our flat screens. No different than what's been going on since print emerged--witness the teapot tempests of Grub Street.)
Romanticism and its post-Beat misfortunes have pretty much disabled "experience" (and its bastard stepchild "authenticity") as a measure for poetry. But I think we need to find another way to talk about the extra dimensions that can make poetry good enough to "take the top of our head off."
I have to laugh at the implication that everything's on the Internet, which is just a recasting of the hubris that has accompanied the human techne of language since its inception. (Even though I've always enjoyed the rhetorical panache of Kenny's "If it's not on the Internet it doesn't exist.") If confronting the limitations of language isn't what gives poetry fiber, then all bets are off. The "Dionysian" giddiness of Flarf smells a bit like another dealer getting high on his own supply.
(continued in the next comment . . . )
Part II:
Still, I would agree that if the walk is just a fishing expedition for "material," then the poet might as well have Googled. I'm interested in how the walk structures a poem. Some of the most interesting "walking poetry," in fact, has been written in the Conceptual vein. See Caroline Bergvall's excellent piece on Perec's "writing in situ," in the noulipian analects (ed. Viegener and Wertheim).
Dale, you write of "the shared concerns of a living environment composed of living people, printed words, and digital documentation." Haven't you left out a HUGE part of the picture here?
I will keep at ecopoetics (dull and clunky though it be) until other-than-humans get more than special consideration. (Maybe by "people" you mean to include other-than-humans--an old meaning we unfortunately can't assume in this culture.) Why is 99.9% of the rest of this planet so habitually left out of our (Western cultural) way of talking? It's a shocking omission, especially in the light of so much habitual "care" for all other kinds of difference.
Until the species difference becomes an equally habitual part of our rhetoric, ecopoetics will have its grubby work to do.
This is what I mean by species difference: do you think other species give a damn how carefully we include them in our poems and speeches? Hardly. What they care about is how much carbon we spew into the atmosphere doing so (.2g of CO2 per Google click):
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article5489134.ece
So, in a certain sense, Kenny has a point when he says that information is material. While the Flarfists have yet to show me they care about their footprint in a more-than-Google world.
In any case, the carbon-cost of Googling might just give walking around the block an ecological edge.
Jonathan
Tony, David, and everyone else--thanks for these comments. Whether or not the poems are interesting, there's a big distance between them and Goldsmith's statements in this instance. I'm also wondering how this work could be discussed in useful ways that don't talk down to so many people--assuming, for instance, that we're all naive essentialists, or that it's a radical departure to not be one. I've seen things by KG that are quite interesting, but this isn't one of them. And he's done some tremendous work. I like also Bok's performances (I'm not even sure why Flarf and ConPo are now symbiotically connected, come to think of it). But the celebratory airs aren't earned.
Jonathan, I just posted that last one before seeing your posts. I'm bleary-eyed and will get back with you tomorrow. But I admit much more sympathy for ConPo. Perhaps this instance in POETRY Goldsmith just hit the wrong notes. But let me think more on this tomorrow.
Thanks for this--
Dale
Actually, I think that F-ConPo is a creation of the last few months. Between the reading at the Whitney and this Poetry Feature, a new beast has been born.
Conceptual Poetry should go back to being that, and shine away. Flarf doesn't really have anything supporting it.
"class-A, car salesman b. s." -- right on!
The issue and poems inside were anticlimatic and highly disappointing after all the pre-publication hoo-hah.
F-ConPo, indeed.
I'm so confused. I need an Exedrin.
Where are the Exedrin?
Perhaps the sense of creating something and then making it scarce is a sin. Worse yet is the notion of being caught in the act of doing that.
The abundance of words versus their actual use sic technical skill is the point and nothing ever really changes when it comes to the actual selection of "materials". The end product is more or less the same depending on the criteria used by the "I" who makes the creative choices involved in "poetry". I say "poetry" instead of poetry in order to discriminate between actual writing and actual poesy.
Maybe it is an important distinction to make when in fact much flarf cannot be differentiated from a Conan O'Brien monologue.
Peace
All I can say is if digital technologies have changed their lives, they need to get waaaay better lives.
Flarf is flarf, poetry is poetry.
Poetry is Blake, Milton, Shakespeare,Hopkins, Eliot,Moore, Pound, Williams, Stevens, Niedecker (and that's just the English speaking ones, or part of 'em)
Flarf is "I Google Myself". Ok, maybe its a satire, a send up of all the self googlers in the digital age, but it ain't poetry.
Flarf is fine, for what it is, which is... what it is.
Flarf is barf.
I'll take the slow poetry, although I haven't read the feature yet.
I assume it comes out of the slow food movement, whereas Flarf comes out of the Fast Food era.
I don't see what's wrong with sincerity, if you consider the alternative.
Fragment from Youth (and the internets! oooh! ahhh! the internet btw is our new dictator so I don't know how I feel about it and I don't like the idea of all culture and language somehow being different because of it's ubiquitousness.. it would be like 20 years ago if "shiny magazines" were somehow larger than life and everything not in them was quaint. Words are ancient their still on the internet (this is the title, long title)... they havn't changed just because their is a "new emperor" in town
I'm a young poet and I've been dealing with these assholes my short adult life -- they are like indie rockers who work (or used to) for a fancy establishment job. The fast food model is perfect - our nation is a nation where the cheesiest, fastest food, most corporatist crap is a big part of what is 'established' -- look at wall street. It's also a part of what is "anti-established"
Having been "new" we get fooled by "newness" -- the new new newness is just that the same old crap repackaged.
Blue Cross and Blue Shield may as well have been a drive through selling french fries late at night after the sock hop I mean uniform required indie rock show -- before they all work at ESPN the next day -- but I digress. The new yuppies are "alternative" "hipsters" so the new yuppie professors are sometimes these F-con-po fuckers. They are legitimizing their privilege with "noise" and "the internet," just as establishment poets in the past legitimized their privilege their privilege with "craft". They have their own new camoflage and are actually fool themselves more than the rest of us -- relying on metaphor here for shorthand.
One of the problems I think with poetry -- good poetry, real poetry, literature, the stuff we try to write, not as "avant-guard" made up term artists but as WRITERS who are trying to CONTINUE WRITING is that poetry itself has a way of thinking that isn't taught the way subjects are taught in academia. When it uses the academia thinking it always looses .... because that is an inferior thinking by definition.
"love and poetry always win"
"war is always a great big loose"
that's all I'm trying to say really.
Young "Anonymous" above, ending comment "that's all I'm really trying to say":
This is a terrific contribution. But important in these comment fields to sign one's name! Poems can and sometimes must be without names (though you won't find this in F-Con Po, where the Author Function seems to seize its practitioners with a vengeance, an ironic phenomenon that needs more study); but comments in these exchanges, I believe, should always be signed! And that comment is one you should be proud to put your name to.
Kent
I’ve aired criticisms of Flarf and Conceptual writing as movements on this blog before, and, though I find particular writers associated with both F and CW brilliant and energetic, I too think Goldsmith’s attempts at being contemporary pretty feeble. But I don’t understand the desire, Dale, to earnestly oppose so-called “F-ConPo” with SloPo. Whatever else SloPo is doing, it is in part also trying to elbow its way onto and inhabit a similar pinhead of cultural capital. It leaves untouched this (apparently broadly shared) need to build and obsess over poetry “communities.”
You're right, Iain. Some related but unrelated-to-YOU frustrations spilled over here. Mea culpa.
For the record, I didn't say anything about your degrees or lack of them.
Also, I am not "anti-academia" but I do get annoyed when members of the so-called avant-garde pretend to be engaged in aesthetic revolution while maintaining comfortable tenured perches in academe. This is nothing against them as people. I'm sure Ken Goldsmith is a blast at parties and stops to help stranded motorists change their tires.
For what it's worth, I prefer to get my necessary doses of humor from folks like Steven Wright. He's funnier than any flarfist and more profound than any ConPo. Better yet, he writes his own material.
Jill asked:
>Kent, can you tell us exactly who these "working-class" people are and how you know who they are?
Jill, it's pretty safe to say that the great bulk of Flarf raw material has such sociological source: chat rooms (you know, the dumbass, subaltern kind where people write weird, anxious things that are then put up for ridicule by superior intellectual types), psychiatric questionnaires for distressed people, probably by and large working class, yes, things like that. After all, most popular culture, broadly defined (we agree that most Flarf material tends to come from popular culture sources, right?) is of "non-elite" roots.
But your question is interesting on another level. No, I can't tell you exactly who these people are whose language makes its spliced, distorted, "sculpted" appearance in Flarf poems. Because of course we are never told exactly who they are-- it doesn't seem to matter, does it, when it comes to the method: They're just lesser-type folks who turn out to have unknowingly given their "uneducated" discourse to "not-OK" Neo-Dada publications and readings in Museums, where their discourse is read with faux, disparaging accent and intonation by people with MFA's in snowmobile suits, to cool audiences who knowingly and condescendingly laugh amidst the Duchamp's and the Warhol's and the appetizers and the wine.
No, you see, I *don't* know who these people are. And neither do you!
But I guess that's "OK," because the whole point is to be "not-OK." To be hip and cool... Even if you're already in your later-30s or mid-40s and should have gotten over the attitude by now.
Kent
hey Joseph,
I assumed you were referring to my lack of official credentials with the "pseudo"-intellectual comment (I had admitted never having graduated high school a few comments earlier, and it felt like I was being attacked on this basis).
I understand though, frustrations seem to be running high, and I've certainly said things in comment sections that I've regretted.
no worries,
-iain
Hey Iain,
Probably most of us, who more or less wasted our lives narcissistically pursuing writing degrees, admire your status.
:~)
Kent
To agree with the anonymous young poet a few posts up:
As young poet (early 20s) who enjoys reading and writing new and unconventional types of poetry, I also find it hilarious that so many yuppie "avant-garde" poetry academics think that the internet is so earth-shattering not only for poetry but for the way we live our lives. Obviously, this says more about these individuals than it does about poets as a group.
I'm sure the internet has altered the way many individuals (such as Flarfists) engage the world, just as television has played a large part in turning many of us into hive-minded shut-ins. But we're not ALL automatically in this category just because we have access to a certain technology.
Maybe someone should start an Internet Addiction support group for poets. It's clear that many poets have been sucked into this thing and can't get out.
Trust me, in spite of what you may be hearing, there are millions of young people who still enjoy going outside far more than sitting in front of the glowing rectangles. In fact, many of us consider the glowing rectangles, when not used in moderation, to be delivery devices of a heartless, individuality-stifling view of the world that we'd rather not participate in. And, if you can forgive a little self-righteous idealism: Many of us even consider it sort of a duty, as poets and as humans, to resist this "we are all anonymous media consumers" view of the world. The Flarfists seem to un-ironically endorse this individual-crushing view, which I don't understand. I honestly suspect that I'm just not enough of an intellectual to understand why Flarfists would consider what they're doing to be the only justifiable response to the modern world. Truly, I simply can't understand, and nothing that I've read has helped me to understand why they promote their views this way.
Another thing that bothers me about Flarf is that it seems to me that all of the intellectual justification for it has come after the fact. If I understand correctly, the Flarf movement started out as a bunch of NYC poets exchanging joke poems that they had written with the aid of Google. I guess it's only natural that a bunch of poetry academics would be unable to have a little fun without quickly trying to justify it as something intellectually worthwhile.
Again, I'm not a poetry-conservative at all, but I just can't understand this stuff.
Thanks for the blog post.
Dan
Fight the real enemy:
http://officialchicagopoetry.blogspot.com/
On the Poetry Foundation, a commenter on this subject sincerely wrote what's pasted below. So it just goes to show that while Goldsmith may tend to hyperbolize and overstate things we take for granted (Dale says, "I wonder who, writing anything worth paying attention to, really believes words are their own today?"), both Slow Poetry and ConPo and Flarf are all engaged in an advanced discourse that can discount such basic assumptions. Clearly, most of the world -- and most of the poetry world -- hasn't even gotten to ask these questions yet. And I think that's who Goldsmith is speaking to. I think if asked, he'd say that SP, ConP, & Flarf are actually all on the same team, although, perhaps sitting on different sides of the bench.
-- Wendy S.
-----------------------
On July 2, 2009 at 12:32 pm Ivan Zimmer wrote:
Forgive my ignorance as I have never been hip, cool or any of that. Let alone savvy to sophistication of "modern" art and literature. Please just let me ask these questions:
How can a poem be a poem if it is not written BY the poet?
What's more how can a poem be a poem without sincerity, real emotion, allusion, allegory, or thought?
How can a poem be a poem if it is not true?
How can a poem be a poem if it is not a viggnette of the life and soul of the poet?
Isn't metaphor used to enhance the intent of the diction?
I am naive and truly confused, or perhaps my outlook on poetry is more biased to my "literary upbringing"; that is Chinese poetry.
So...doesn't the poem serve a function other that to be a "sculpture" of words?
Isn't a poem meant to be sung, recited, wailed or extolled?
Doesn't the poem need to have resonance with the hearts and minds of others, and therefore serve an important social function?
Perhaps I am an uneducated rustic for asking these questions, but could someone find it in their heart to answer these ignorant questions of mine?
Thank you.
Wendy S.: thanks for that grounding note. It's much appreciated....
Tony,
Love all around. What's up with Lucipo, by the way? I saw Ken Rumble at a reading in Chicago, and great to see him. But does Lucipo still exist?
Sure, I'm aware that there are different sources in Flarf, some of them in the innocuous fair-use category. And I'm perfectly fine with the method in the abstract, even if I find it somewhat uninteresting and stale. Give me a Flarf poem along the lines of Weinberger's What I Heard about Iraq, for example. Raid and sculpt the speeches of Cheney on enhanced interrogation, etc. No problem with Flarf like that.
I'm talking about prevalent drift, an affect, a certain ubiquitous presumption and smugness which many have noticed and commented on. You know, that Pound quotes Adams and Confucius and Jefferson in The Cantos doesn't make the anti-Semitic push and attitude OK.
I realize that last analogy will be considered "not-OK" by some, but I seem to be in a Flarfy mood. And it's actually a pretty good analogy.
Here's another analogy concerning attitude: In the 18th Century, in London, the rich used to go on tours of the houses of Bedlam, to be entertained by the oblivious crazy people. They'd come back, in their wigs, and laugh and laugh in the salon, over snuff. The crazy people were really funny!
Kent
$100 says that that person gets ignored, that no one even tries to answer the questions, and that s/he goes on feeling not smart enough for and disconnected from the world of current poetry, just like so many other aspiring poets with only a BA or less.
Come to think of it, another $100 says that person's questions will end up in a piece of Flarf somewhere. And we'll all laugh.
And good post by "Dan."
I happen to know that a good number of 20-something poets in Chicago (I'm serious!), very cool kids, many of them in the Noise Music scene and such, think Flarf is sort of like Hoola Hoop for poser hipsters. If that's how you spell Hoola Hoop.
Kent
Kent, anti-hipster smugness is no better than hipster smugness.
A little suggested reading for you:
http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/op-ed/look_at_this_fucking_hipster_basher.php
Anonymous (sign your names, people!),
I hope Kenny Goldsmith answers Ivan, there. I just posted something to him, in reply.
Kent
Matt,
Thanks for the teaching. I honestly know nothing about the "hip," I'm the first to admit.
But I didn't say these kids in Chicago were "smug." I think their yawns and shrugs are insouciantly sincere.
Kent
Kent, your response to Jill raises an interesting issue. Given that Flarf has a "sculpted" appearance, who really knows if they are actually following the method they claim to be using? New scandal headline: "Flarfists Admit They Write Their Own Poems." Oh, what would happen to their dubious cachet if such a truth came out?
the slow poetry explanation was deserving of satire.
i'm sorry but it was.
and Kenny G is a salesman, nothing more. He can't write prose and he fakes it, he even fakes artifice.
The flarfist are ok. Nada Gordon and Kasey have entertained me. I've yet to see anything by Gary Sullivan that deserves any attention so if ione can direct to a piece of his that'd be great, but I just am not entertained or impressed at all. Bok deserves recognition and respect. Kenny is just a salesman who can't write real poetry or prose and is more like a groupie... or a drummer in a band... you know, the one who just wants to be in the band so as to be cool yet can't play.
Yet Kenny's UBUweb is awesome. That is his real achievment but he needs to go back to school to learn how to write a book report before he can come into the literary world guns ablaze trying to dress like bootsy and he can't play the bass. Silliman too. these guys are hanger's-on to the real poet's of their respective scenes. such as armantrout to lang-po and Kasey to flarf, Bok to Conceptual.
Silliman and Goldsmith= PR men.
While Kent waits for KG to respond to Ivan, let me say, respectfully, that perhaps my note above to Dale goes unanswered because it sounds like a rhetorical question, at best, and like a rhetorical trap, at worst. It was meant to be neither. So let me add just this: Above, Wendy S. suggests that “if asked, [Goldsmith would] say that SP, ConP, & Flarf are actually all on the same team, although, perhaps sitting on different sides of the bench.”
Which might be accurate in more ways than one, regardless of what KG would say.
As a couple of other souls in their early twenties have chimed in (quite eloquently, I might add) on the growing resistance among young folk (as far as I can observe from here) to the sort of facile response to/adoption of new media and technology seen in f-con po, I guess I’ll chime in too. I’ve avoided the lethe of comment rivers up until now...oh, well...coins on the eyelids. As Dan says, the current enamourment with the internets seems on the one hand a predictable (even a bit sad) attempt to remain relevant on the part of these aging yupsters... A bit like David Bern (who’s quasi-ironic embrace of the language and aesthetics of colorado-springs style late capitalism make him an artist of shrinking relevance) and his glowing endorsement of every Pitchfork flash-hip indie act in order to appear ‘with it’. It’s simply an ignorance (willful or not) of the ways in which the world actually is changing. These two posts (now three) from young poets might give a small glimpse at this change. Yes, internet-fueled capitalism is a new phase in its (our? oh fuck) history but, on a certain level, it’s merely an ‘expansion of its field’, right? Same freedom/imagination stifling pornographic seductions, same exploitation of human suffering as witnessed in the endless chain of frivolous desires that it must create in order to propagate itself. Consumption is faster and more efficient, maybe a bit more difficult to resist at times because the internet does have plenty of facets that are actually useful and one gets distracted. Despite their claims--well maybe they make this claim...I imagine they would...that they are demystifying this new-er technology, the effect seems to be precisely the opposite. That is, that a recent exponent of capitalism, which was initially designed to coordinate icbm attacks, has the latent potential to create new possibilities for the avant-garde. It all seems completely disingenuous.
(to take the 100 dollar bet) A poem is a sculpture of words a machine of words a staircase of words a dream of words an IED of words a suit of words, what have you. It ought to be sung, recited, and extolled. Perhaps the most limiting factor in the world of internet-centered (where’s the center, again? maybe determined is a more apt choice) poetry is that the presence of a physicality is nearly impossible. The poem and the song have the same sun-worshiping origin. The internet, on the other hand, is all visual (I guess auditory to a certain degree, but the auditory is (or ought to be) as kinesthetic as a heart beat, immersion in water, or fucking...I’m probably going to loose my hearing soon as a result of this view, but so be it). Here in Chicago, lots of young folks are creating actual communities; physical-temporal spaces in which we exchange our music, art, writing, ideas, gardening tips face-to face. The anarchist/wobblie/hobohemian communities around Chicago’s Dill Pickle Club during the twenties and thirties might be a working model. It is loud, celebratory, and not quite legal. We are not facebook friends. Sometimes a Sorbonne-educated sex worker beats the shit out of some coked-out trust fund kid then we all go swimming.
Brooks
p.s. I apologize for the the sloppiness of this post and all the loopy parentheticals. I’m late to go play a game of chess in the south side and really would like to get out from behind the screen.
p.p.s. I recommend that everyone here (especially my young compares) read Richard Grossinger's 2013: Raising the Earth to the Next Vibration in the most recent issue of House Organ. Read it aloud and say 'Welcome back to the physical plane Mr. Walt Whitman, we missed you'.
I don't know who David Bern is, but as for David Byrne, he's still got it, I think. I'm 27, so I hope I'm not too old to be taken seriously.
Kent said:
"chat rooms (you know, the dumbass, subaltern kind where people write weird, anxious things that are then put up for ridicule by superior intellectual types), psychiatric questionnaires for distressed people, probably by and large working class,"
Wow, Kent. That's really making a whole lot of assumptions an entire class. Are working class people the only ones that use chat rooms? Are they the only ones who make subaltern comments?
More to the point, how can you know who is who in chat rooms and moreover, what class they belong to? I think it's classist of you to make such generalizations without being able to verify accurate identities.
And this leads to a broader conversation about identity and what's "real." Ry's hostility aside, you liberally use the word "real" without ever telling us what "real" is:
real poetry or prose
real achievment
real poet's
And even if you could describe "real," is "realness" anything we could all agree upon?
I'm finding you guys to be not only sloppy, but verging on offensive.
Jill I., Texas
Should have apologized for the misspellings as well...I'm sure there are otehrs. Anyway the latest Byrne-Eno record was really unimaginative. But this is not a music blog. The Byrne thing was simply an off-handed example to illustrate a point (well articulated or not). I don't give a shit how many years you've been on the earth this time around. You only risk not being taken seriously if you imitate the common flarfist 'debate' tactic of smug-assed dismissive one and two liners rather engaging others who offer their thoughts, feelings and opinions.
Brooks
I'd like to second Jill's sentiments. For a group of Slow Poets, concerned with helping the earth; and through your poetic practice, making this world more gentle and compassionate place to be, there's enough hostility and anger here to burn down a few civilizations.
-- Wendy
I didn't feel a defense of David Byrne warranted more than a couple lines. After all, as you said, this isn't a music blog.
And anyway I think arguing about flarf vs. slopo is like arguing about Star Trek vs. Star Wars. It's really nothing to get worked up about.
I find it a bit (just a bit, as I don't really care very much about these arguments) distressing that you folks, with whom I am in substantial agreement, often seem to be participating in an echo chamber no less, um, echo-chamber-y than those frequented by the f-con-posse. I read a little of the f-con issue before my eyes glazed over & I remembered that I have stuff to do, & I can't really see the point of any reaction that goes beyond a shrug, which is all it deserves. Why so many words, so much venom, wasted on such a self-defeating blip on the cultural radar, to be replaced sooner rather than later by some other almost identical bullshit "movement"? Flarf will be forgotten by the time you can roll your eyes, while conceptual poetry's shelf-life extends no further than the last person to get the joke. Meanwhile, all sorts of other people are writing interesting poems.
Meanwhile, the cultural space these idiots want to occupy, while, um, decrying its commodification, is inhabited by this sort of thing:
Blowing the Fluff Away
by Robyn Sarah
The sprig of unknown bloom you sent last fall
spent the long winter drying on my wall,
mounted on black. But it had turned to fluff
some months ago. Tonight I took it down
because I thought that I had had enough
of staring at it. Brittle, dry and brown,
it seemed to speak too plainly of a waste
of friendship, forced to flower, culled in haste.
So, after months of fearing to walk past
in case the stir should scatter it to bits,
I took it out to scatter it at last
with my own breath, and so to call us quits.
—Fooled! for the fluff was nothing but a sheath,
with tiny, perfect flowers underneath.
Could be the worst poem I've ever read, but it's not deliberately bad. Sort of charming, really, in its badness. This is the real enemy, according to f-con: but that's like fighting bunnies, or blowing away fluff. Who cares?
Boyd, Slow Poetry doesn't want anything. It is not "trying to elbow its way onto and inhabit a similar pinhead of cultural capital." Mostly this is so because there are no slow poets. My introductory claims at Big Bridge are mine. Each gallery section is led off with essays by others who are likewise trying to think through some of the problems of contemporary culture and arts. There is no unified platform. Slow Poetry is an open space for anyone to use. It is by nature contradictory, confused, angry, happy, crafy, guileful, naked, astonished, lame, limpy, lively, kooky, intelligent, earnest, etc.
I'm in the process of building a website and forum for public discussion around Slow Poetry as an idea. Some of those ideas are outlined at Big Bridge.
Anyway, I appreciate all of the thoughtful comments here. My problem with Goldsmith is that he compromised the interesting aspects of Conceptual Poetry by hooking up with Flarf. But I can forgive Goldsmith, despite the introduction in POETRY. Flarf, however, continues to offer nothing of use.
Unlike Michael, I think these discussions are useful and help air out the issues a little.
"Why use your own words when you can express yourself just as well by using someone else’s?"
Ooooo, collage for the internet...
Dale I agree with you about slow poetry or slopoetry or whatver. I'm just worried that it is too reactionary or corrective? I know it isn't but after reading that explanation of slopoetry I couldn't help but feel the same way as whoever satirized it. maybe the moralizing tone of it? i dunno... something. maybe consolidation of it into an aesthetic replete with a quasi-manifesto is too much? anyway, i'll write slowly and red slowly if i want and i don't need a label for it.
What I love is how the younger people don't like flarfconpo. that makes it seem like the flarfists are just poets in midlife crises. that is funny. (and true?) it's like those peopleon reality TV who humiliate themselves just to attain fame. or not... whatver.
Ry,
a comment section where people are talking shit about "fconpo" is hardly an accurate sample group from which to draw the conclusion that "younger people don't like flarfconpo". I'm 24 and get a lot out of flarf, conceptual poetry, and plenty of other things (including a pretty much most of the poetry that dale talks about). Also, I'm not sure if not having vicenarians like your poetry is an indication that you're going through a midlife crisis.
lain,
i said "seem like" not is.
but i'm off to the clinic right now
to see it my samples confirm this.
-ry
The rearrangement of the poem-poet-reader dynamic by Flarf offers new strategies for both poet and reader. By imagining the actual worlds where both the poetic statements of “Does Your Poetry Hold Up?” make a kind of sense, and also (perhaps most importantly) by imagining worlds or selves where one would be subject to such statements, assertions and appraisals, a reader experiences a kind of negative capability that is usually regarded as the province of poets.
Troylloyd, but there's also an ethical issue at stake: everyone lifts images, lines, ideas, etc from the air around them, but usually not in condescending ways, in efforts to make fun of the source material and those who wrote them, in Flarf's case, online. Most poetry tries to reveal some aspect of the world using what the poet brings. Flarf seems to care little about seeing a world, but an awful lot about showing themselves far above it instead.
Michael Robbins wrote: "Flarf will be forgotten by the time you can roll your eyes, while conceptual poetry's shelf-life extends no further than the last person to get the joke."
We have both the curse and the privilege of not being able to recognize history during our lifetime.
Dworkin and Goldmsith are bringing out a 600-page Conceptual Writing Anthology from Northwestern; and Gary Sullivan is just finishing up a Flarf anthology, due out in the Fall. The Whitney presented these works to a packed-house of 700 people in the Spring and now Poetry has devoted 30-odd pages to it.
Flash in the pan? Don't think so...
Jed R.
Oh, good point. By that logic, I was wrong about There Are Men Too Gentle to Live among Wolves, too.
Jed, Rothenberg's presence in the Slow Poetry feature got me thinking about the role of anthologies today, and anthologizing missions. I wonder how the anthology's social function has, or has not, changed since the 1960s and 70s. Has anything taken its place? In terms of fresh circulations of ideas, can something like the recent Hybrid American anthology compare to Donald Allen's gathering or to Technicians of the Sacred, etc? I don't mean--does the value of the work hold up next to these older models. I mean, instead, are the social functions still related--and if not--where does the vitality and energy of new poetry now circulate? I strongly doubt it's in the Whitney, and that 700 audience members may just be a small drop in the bucket of readers online?
Or the pogo stick.
Or Op Art.
Or the works of Vachel Lindsay, proto-Flarf figure.
(That's not Jed Rasula, I trust? Can't imagine he would have written a line like "We have both the curse and the privilege of not being able to recognize history during our lifetime." Jed?
Kent
Kent, No. I'm Jed Rootham of Greensboro, NC. where I work in marketing. Just a fan, in general.
Dale, I think that there are still certain structures that confer a type of lasting value in a way that online yet hasn't been able to do. I think -- and I may be wrong here -- that paper and big institutions still (for better or worse) sanction cultural value. But, yes, you're right. There is a much larger following online (I, of course, wasn't in NYC for the Whitney event -- never been to NYC) but the question is: can lasting reputations be formed online only? And if so, how?
Jed
Or wait, maybe that's a poach from Benjamin, or somebody!
In any case, I'm afraid it's quite inapplicable to the notion that a bit of sub-Art market media buzz or two more poetry anthologies suggest "historical significance."
Kent
Jed, I've got to fly out of here, but before I do I want to say that I look for spaces of cultural vitality--or poetic vitality. The legitimizing aspect with reputation-formation doesn't interest me as much, though I imagine there could be some overlap. And your post got me thinking about print and digital spaces, not to mention live performance situations, word-of-mouth discussions, etc. What moves conversation forward? Sometimes an anthology? Sometimes a poem? Sometimes a blog or a listserv? I don't know. The moment is wonderfully complex.
Thank you for your comments, everyone. This has been pretty enlightening to read.
Kenny Goldsmith
Thanks for the generous response, Dale. A conversation that does more than sideswipe those issues probably requires a commitment of time and energy beyond what I am now able to provide, and perhaps beyond even what I am willing to provide. Even so, I do want to say that, in view of your above (interesting) comments, I struggle to tell the difference between SloPo and the very possibility of publicity, indeed, more importantly, the very possibility of communication. How, in fact, can a particular platform, even one that is not unified—and especially one that implicitly distinguishes itself from other poetic movements—suggest also that it is an “open space for anyone to use”?
That is to say, while it might be (provisionally) useful for Slow Poetry not to have a unified platform, and while it might be worthwhile (at first) for Slow Poetry to be an open space—or to put it another way, for there to be no slow poets—at some point that open space must take on identifiable features and at some point there must be slow poets. Unless of course the whole point of there being no slow poets is that Slow Poetry can be written only when there are no poets in particular writing it.
We, those of use in the know, deep in the belly of the rotten beast, have heard a version of that latter claim before, most recently with Language poetry and Flarf. What, after all, makes one a Language poet? Not her or his particular features, presumably, for Language poets insist, on one hand, on their deep similarities with other Language poets while, on the other, on their stark difference from other (individual) poets. And we all remember when some Flarfists insisted that no one could object to particular Flarf poems unless one had already closely read all Flarf poems. And etc. (It would be rather easy to extend this to Conceptual writing and so on.)
My point (or at least one of my points) here is this: if the purpose of opposing f-conpo is just to excoriate their failures as individuals writers, their pettiness and backbiting, hypocrisy and bad choices, then have at it with as many fucking petty comments about how Silliman should be losing sleep as you want. But, if the point is really to address the failure at the heart of f-conpo, then I don’t see how SloPo is really an alternative; indeed, I don’t see why an alternative poetry community or set of communities needs to be conceptualized at all. What we need is not more poets willing to take a stand (as Silliman puts it in his post about the American Hybrid
anthology). What we need is to see that what Silliman calls taking a stand—for or against f-conpo, for or against SloPo—just is the problem.
Hi Kenny, nice to have you conceptually "chime in."
I wanted to ask you something, don't know if you know or care to answer, and OK if you don't, but thought I'd throw the question out:
Marjorie Perloff, the most prominent English-language critic of "avant-garde" poetry, likes Conceptual Poetry a lot, as some of her recent writing indicates. And yet, despite all the hoopla around the phenomenon, there has been not a peep from her (unless I've missed it, perfectly possible) about Flarf.
The question seems somewhat interesting, now that Conceptual Poetry and Flarf have auto-conjoined into F-Con Po: Does Marjorie like Flarf, or does she think it's more like a frivolous thing with limited shelf life?
Just curious.
Kent
even shakespeare has a limited shelf life
Kent,
Marjorie Perloff is quoted briefly talking about flarf on this Poetry Off the Shelf podcast (starting 8:29 in):
"I mean, what makes it poetry?... Nothing is done with rhythm; nothing is done with syntax; nothing is done with sound, like repetition; uh, it's not exactly Whitmanian free verse; and it is just divided into lines arbitrarily"
though, she may have said something a little more eloquent since then (I hope so).
Matt,
Dagnammit, man, if you don't quit it with these devastatingly clever little chirpings, I'm going to pull out the one little tuft of hair I have left on my head!
Kent
Iain,
thanks for that reference.
Maybe Kenny has more info? Maybe she's changed her mind?
Kent
And don't blame Marjorie for not sounding "eloquent" on that podcast, Iain. You should have heard me on the phone with Curtis Fox two days back, trying to do a Poetry Foundation podcast on C.D. Wright. I was so bumbling and incoherent that I called it off about ten minutes in! A total failure.
I thnk Steve Burt is taking my place. He can talk like Obama.
Kent
well, sure. that's why i specified the brevity of f-con-po's shelf life. out, out, brief candle.
Kent,
Oh, I didn't mean that in reference to her statement's spoken quality. I just don't like checklist approach to the "is it poetry?" question.
you're right though, it's just a candid statement.
i think blog comments should be short, speaking of brevity
Allright! Friday night and a long weekend to boot! Half-snockered already and it’s only 2pm (Galveston time). Woo-hoo!
Time for a little (pertinent) poetic fun.
.
Principia
Big things never just suddenly appear!
Only that instantly conceived, the small,
is suddenly here, a flash in the pan
soon to disappear.
Big things approach slowly,
rise ominously over hills,
are seen from far away.
They forewarn their arrival.
Hide if you think you can.
Big things come into view
with deliberate intention
changing everything.
Big things change big things.
Small things are rolled over
by the new. Small things surprise,
milk that spills.
Big things give us time to run.
Always look toward the hills.
.
Copyright 2009 – Tall Grass & High Waves, Gary B. Fitzgerald
Kent,
I haven't heard Marjorie speaking at all about Flarf. Her next book is titled "Unoriginal Genius" so perhaps they will appear there (?)
Kenny
Boyd, thanks for that generous comment. You offer much for me to consider--and I will in time.
Quickly, I want to say that Slow Poetry has certain structural differences with Conceptual Poetry (and other "avant-garde" models). Primarily, it doesn't follow "expansionary" methods, as in Goldsmith's (Hi, Kenneth, thanks for dropping by earlier) statement about a poetics "that proposes an expanded field of 21st century poetry." It's too closely integrated to the globalist metaphors--conquests of markets. Additionally, I wonder about the possibility of creating a "valueless space" (see "Dispatches: Journals" at the Poetry Foundation website). In terms of sticking one's neck out, issues of value have to be argued about. Even a "valueless space" would be valuable for some poets (besides, America is full of "valueless spaces already--any trip through a subprime-stripped suburb can show you that.
While I think it is important to move against the language of "creative writing" by proposing uncreative writing exercises, etc, for students, (I love how Kenneth flips that language--it is terrific), the project of demystification of language and poetry in order to (you can't escape it) create a flattened (yet still rhetoricized) compositional field of some kind or other is in basic opposition to Slow Poetry. Language is not the focus of Slow Poetry, though many who seem interested in it take language as the basic tool.
Words, however, are at the service of poetry, and to some larger human possibility. I don't care how cheesy it sounds in the Warhol context--brilliant as it is--but emotions, modalities of knowledge, the evaluation of experience and the critique of social systems require some intentional applications of language within specialized contexts--within non-institutionalized bodies of knowledge and feeling.
That's a long-winded way of saying that the premises of Conceptual P and Slow P are quite different, the urge to speak v. the urge to strip is at stake. We need no more expansion. Inner life is at stake. History. Psychology. All the messy, difficult things that compose experience in poetry require attention in addition to language--which is but one aspect of that art, as those attempting to engage this Slow POetry thing know.
My interest in singling out Kenny the other day came from the rather cute and easy mystifications of his own in that POETRY intro. Dionysus v. Apollo, etc. There are only two successful movements, blah blah.
Movements are not fundamentally interesting. Slow Poetry is interesting only insofar as it can help a few people reflect on what they do as human dynamic. A structural shift is at stake that looks at humans instead of language as the source. And I know there are troubles with human and humanism and that long expansion of metaphors. (But if there's ever been a moment that could use a little human rejuvination, it's ours). J. Skinner would ask that we include the perspectives of the non-human, too, and I'm with that. But I hope to say more about conceptual poetry later this week.
The comments about Ron--he and I have spoken backchannel. That's life. You take risks and make things happen and don't think things through as well as you should, or you don't.
Thanks again,
Dale
Matt, your hipster smugness shows when you ask if you are too OLD at 27 to be taken seriously. Which I doubt.
wait, someone said that? in earnestness? i don't actually take anything anyone under 30 says seriously. ever. not kidding, either. such folks haven't experienced, read, thought, or done enuf. no exceptions.
Kenny,
I'd heard a couple of comments some time ago that Perloff regards Flarf with some disdain, or at least with indifference, but not sure how accurate that is. The comments on that Poetry Foundation Podcast would seem to suggest it's the case.
Kent
Michael Robbins said:
>i don't actually take anything anyone under 30 says seriously. ever. not kidding, either. such folks haven't experienced, read, thought, or done enuf. no exceptions.
*
Wha? This is so silly it sounds like a proclamation deleted from the 32nd editon of the Writings of the Great Leader Kim Il Sung.
I mean, I'm in my early 50s, and I'm learning things from people in their 20s all the time.
You're in your 30s, Michael, I'm pretty sure. When you get to 40, on your very birthday, you will realize that such wacky statements can only be made by someone still in his youth, who hasn't yet seen enuf of the world.
:~)
But let's keep this focused on F-Con Po!
Kent
ho pleez! turn on yr sarcasm meter, which you invented, for xsake! patent it! put it in a socket! my gf is in her 20's! i am me! you are you! peeps in their 20s go to my head! who is lil wayne! only my favorite rapper!
why are we still talkin bout slo-f-con-pozz les talk sand poetry which is my new movement.
Michael,
My wife is still in her twenties, which is why I took offense. Tomorrow, the 4th of July, happens to be our 10th anniversary. She is a recent member of the Flarf Collective, and they have no idea. I know some things you wouldn't believe.
I didn't realize you were still in your own 20s. You look like you're 38 or 39, in your Village Voice photo.
Did you know that Vachel Lindsay killed himself by drinking sand? He'd just read to 700 people in Muncie.
Kent
Mario, I was being sarcastic. I don't even remember what I was being sarcastic about, but my feeling is that the older and more experienced a person is, the more seriously that person can be taken. Generally, of course. Not all the time. Maybe only 60% of the time. But still. So I'm kind of, just a little bit, in sympathy with Michael Robbins on that point. But I think he's being pretty harsh.
Unless he was being sarcastic, which I just noticed he might have been, if I'm decoding that last comment of his correctly.
the idea is everyone gets together on a beach (if there's no beach nearby you can use a sandbox but i've heard raccoons shit in those) & writes their poems in the sand with a stick. then you wait for the tide. if the tide does not come (if, for instance, you have chosen the beach of a small lake), everyone switches sticks with everyone else (this is symbolic) then defaces other people's poems, either by erasing certain words ("sand erasure") or by changing or adding or subtracting letters or just by crossing the whole thing out. then you photograph the results & publish them in a special portfolio of poetry. (if no one has a camera on their phone you can create vispo whose ephemerality is its raison d'être: death is the mother of sand poetry.)
Dale, good work / words (here) (and in 'comment' on KG note posted in Ron's blog yesterday), look what you've set loose......
Stephen,
Curious what comment at Ron's blog re: "KG note" you're referring to?
I agree that this flurry of commentary (regardless of the F-Con Po poets' pronounced diffidence, at the moment) has been a good thing. Apparently it has opened up the possibility of a written exchange (for publication) on related issues-- between Kenny Goldsmith and Dale Smith.
Good for Kenny Goldsmith!
On the occasion of the 100th comment in this thread, I hereby proffer my willingness to Gary Sullivan (or Kasey Mohammad, or Nada Gordon, or all three as a group) for a similar conversation, ranging over a variety of topics: the historical avant-garde; the conflicted relation of the U.S. post-avant to that history; the conflicted relation, more specifically, of F-Con Po to Language poetry and its denouement; methodologies of technologically based poetry and issues of ethics; the matter of F-Con Po works as representative of "cultural resistance," close readings included; the post-Language avant-garde's seemingly eager embrace of functions and institutions only recently seen as ideological foundations of Official Verse Culture; and any other "not-OK" topic the above poets might wish to discuss. A respectful, serious (though humor fine, too), thoughtful exchange. I'm open and willing to have some of my views altered.
I'm sure we could publish such a piece in a venue with large English-language readership. I'm on the board of a prominent journal in Latin America, and I know for sure that it would be translated and published there.
So just to throw out the invitation!
Kent
Poetry 101
The Brooks kid passed, the rest of you flunked.
Amazing what happens when I ignore the blogs for even a few days . . . some great stuff here, especially from new voices and not the same old crew.
But to those who've used "Apollo vs. Dionysus" as some sort of analogy for hopeless dualistic thinking, well, Dionysus was way better than that moralistic prig.
New to this discussion, but pupils dilating quickly. Sehr interessant.
Now that this discussion is winding down, just thought I'd add my special Old Blowhard nickel.
Poets join groups, poets don't join groups; poets attempt to define/describe/ratify what they think of as their particular style or approach; critics & others do the same about poets; etc.
But "at the end of the day" (I hate that phrase), you have the poem or the art work. It might have come from "Flarf", or "SloPo", or "Langpo", or "Conceptual", or wherever. Acmeism. Futurism. OK. But where it came from is only of secondary import.
What it is, in itself, is the main thing. So when you argue about this or that school, without referring to specific poems, you are ineluctably going to argue at a blurry level of abstraction, & argue past each other, to little effect. Basically it's one blowhard vs. another.
HOWEVER... if you (the reader, the critic) have some kind of instinct for art - a sense of taste, an informed judgement, a curiosity, a generous responsiveness, an experiential knowledge of past & present poetry, all these things - then whatever is set before you - under whatever brand name or packaging it comes - you will read, experience, respond to, & judge, based on your own inner sense of art & poetry, AS A WHOLE, as an aesthetic "gestalt", if you will.
Other people will look for other things. Some people like junk food. Some people are new to poetry. Some people are jaded & tired of poetry, fed up with it.
The bandwagons & parades will go on down the street; the street will be torn up, oats & wheatcrop will be planted in its stead; languages will become untranslateable; blowhards will run out of steam; etc. What is authentic poetry, to you? With what range of writing & writers are you in conversation, involved, engaged? Which way is the wind blowing today? Where did you leave your car keys?
p.s. I don't mean to imply that I accept some kind of artistic or aesthetic relativism. Far from it. I have my own exalted myths & notions about what Real Poetry is, and for me, poetry is One Thing (in many variations). & precisely BECAUSE poetry is One Thing, the individual works of art - from whatever "school" they emerge - will eventually have to stand before that ideal aesthetic Judgement Seat, & meet their maker's Maker...
what henry said.
What Matt said.
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