(Somewhere in the brain-box, in some mouse-turd’d corner reserved for the mealiest-mouth’d scurrilities, is this: “The whole notion of the poet as a solitary practitioner—the splendid isolato—is so out of touch with reality as to be bizarre. Sure there are poets who eschew the companionship of their peers—but there is a reason for it. These are poets with issues.” La Silliman’s insinuating that individualism is something of an aberrance, even—load’d word, “issues”—a mental illness. Note, too, how he blatantly uses the death of one individual, Victoria Rathbun—“a fine young poet who hung with the Actualists in the late 1970s”—in a cynical attempt to bolster—“I don’t know why Victoria Rathbun didn’t publish more in other post-Actualist contexts,” he says, mock-innocently, though the answer (she somehow fail’d at “the phenomenon of groupness”) is at the ready—another argument for careerist groupuscular formation. The sign of how little hoot Silliman gives to poetry itself: there is no Rathbun poem provided, she’s a mere marker in a sociological argument, mere marker in a theory of “groupness.” Silliman himself’s clearly become a casualty of trademark Sillimanick rhetorical bludgeoning, too many hours logged marketing is what produces a line like: “the fate of poetry in a managerial society such as the United States.” Gone is any sense of how individual perception might battle the coveys (convoys) of mere opinion-mongers, or how poetry’s (and a poet’s) aim ought be, wholly, yea recklessly, to counter the speciousness of the Doxa, to defeat the managers by extravagance, rebuttal, daring, jest, and scorn. And exile. What Silliman proposes is precisely the opposite: managerial poetry for a managerial society.)
Thursday, June 18, 2009
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21 comments:
Agree in toto. Now where has Toto run off to?
I loved this, but wouldn't have thought of it.
Nevertheless, a lot of the best work is ultimately by soloists.
Who helped Kierkegaard?
Who helped Nietzsche?
Who helped Dickinson?
Who knew rimbaud, or Lautreamont?
I'm not saying that they had great careers in that they got far ahead or dominated their own era, but their work is still interesting to us today while those who had zillions of allies, often isn't.
Silliman's group sure did well for itself, but I don't think anyone ever read them, or ever will. Still, by clubbing together, they did brilliantly. You can go a lot further that way, especially if you're totally shameless about it, as they have been, and continue to be.
John Latta: "What Silliman proposes is precisely the opposite:
managerial poetry for a managerial society."
If I remember correctly, Kenneth Goldsmith said that technology has developed in such a way that there is nothing for us to do but be managers, and so the foundation for his brand of Conceptualism: "managerial poetry for a managerial society". Are LangPo and Flarf and other brands of Conceptualism of the same ilk? Does it matter? We know that when Silliman was young Poetry Northwest, TriQuarterly, and Poetry published poems he had written, experiences which told him/ that kind of writing was too easy, that he wanted something more challenging. As to Flarf, I just learned that Gary Sullivan's prank entry into the International Poetry Society contest was the initial spark.
I think each author's personality (such as it was/is/will be) is at the center of what s/he chooses to write and the degree of drive to promote it. Whatever I've written I have written out of a felt need to. Whether any of it makes a favorable impression on someone else is out of my control. Promotion does sometimes win the day but there is no guarantee it will win the ages.
word v: seest
Brian, yes, the issues here seem to revolve around notions of agency....
If I were Silliman, and I saw the Slow Poetry feature at Big Bridge, I would have trouble sleeping--let alone living with myself--due to decades of bad choices and cheap, baby-boom political affinities based on easy-access to everything America (or the world) ever offered, etc---real results, I assume, that must haunt "one."
The biologist Edward O. Wilson noted last week in a lecture at NYU that it took a hundred million years for social insects in the form of ants to appear, and they now make up two-thirds of bugs.
Can you argue with success?
You may think that ants are nasty and sickening creatures (esp. the fire ants you have in Austin), and that individualist butterflies are the way to go (beauty, and uniqueness!), but butterflies are much more fragile, and when set upon by ants, are toast.
Still, I'm with you. I'm rooting for the butterflies and the asocial bugs.
There's some good discussion possible behind Latta's utterly ridiculous hyperbole. I mean, do we want to actually have a discussion about writing as a social act vs. writing as in individualist act or is this just a competition to see how ridiculously one can state their opinion? If the latter, Silliman started off pretty well, but now Latta is kicking his ass.
I mean, this is an argument over whether the ocean is wet or big.
Doesn't slow poetry want a community oriented poetry? Where does the leap in logic come from that Silliman saying that he thinks poetry functions best in groups is the equivalent of him supporting totalitarian poetry "managers"? I mean, yes, there are pitfalls to poetry only operating within a community, but no, Glen Beck, Socialism does not always mean Nazism.
These arguments are so tiresome. I'm genuinely interested in both sides, but can we at least try to understand each other? This particular selection of Latta is so anti-SloPo in the way he approaches reading Silliman, I'm surprised to see you promoting it. If Slow Poetry can't take time to carefully read and honestly portray what its opponents are saying, doesn't it start out as a hypocritical movement?
Lain gimme a break
big differences here
as in Silliman doesn't even know who Victoria R was--how she died? Does he even care? You call that community?
Big difference between a marketing campaign and community
Lain, I take back the "gimme a break" part
If I were Silliman, and I saw the Slow Poetry feature at Big Bridge, I would have trouble sleeping--let alone living with myself--due to decades of bad choices and cheap, baby-boom political affinities based on easy-access to everything America (or the world) ever offered, etc---real results, I assume, that must haunt "one."
Jesus. "Decades of bad choices"? what the heck does that mean? Silliman doesn't need me to defend him, and he once called me "the crown prince of bad choices". . .
i don't know about him, but at my age i don't have to read your slomopo to start having regrets and sleepless nights, all i have to do is look in the mirror—
maybe Kurzweil is right and your gen won't have to suffer getting old——
maybe 300 years from now when your brain-entity is stretching its android limbs you might think back with compassion
on us fleshpo's——
we did the best we could in the few decades we had, dude—
Iain---your name is Iain, isn't it? ---how come you keep letting slo Dale call you Lain?
Fleshpo's -- I like that, Bill.
ADG,
majuscule "i' looks like a minuscule "L" in sanserif fonts. It's a common mistake, and besides, misreadings, misspellings, typos, and mispronunciations all help form who we are, and are of particular interest to me. I prefer to roll with them, rather than correct them. A few of my friends even call me "Lain". But yes, my "real" name is "Ian", eye-eh-en, pronounced ee-in.
-iin
I know Kenneth Goldsmith and I think "Kurzweil is right" barring the prevention of our conquering human death by some event which escaped our attention. And so, also being of your generation, Bill Knott, I thank you for your comment, for I too only need to look in the mirror to see the face of my regrets. Still, there is a wee chance a few from our generation may be able to participate.
On the other end of the human story is "The Simplifier": a www.edge.org streaming video converstion with John A. Bargh in which he says: "Our focus, rather, was in terms of evolutionary biology and the basic principles of natural selection: and that field makes clear that humans must have had these kinds of mechanisms or these processes to guide our behavior prior to evolution or emergence of consciousness." Received notice of this conversation today in an email from Edge.
Your "fleshpo" is striking.
As the Age of Pisces gives way to the Age of Aquarius, whereto humanity?
2009-06-19
i suspect that if Silliman or me and other poets of our twilight gen
do have problems sleeping, troubled by regrets about our "decades of bad choices",
our remorse will most likely be caused by the imprecations and declinations of age,
not by reading slopo or any other newbie mo—
I too like what Bill says.
Truth hurts.
Sad to see Victoria Rathbun asterisk'd in a poetry blog--she deserves better. Didn't know her well, and have read precious few poems, but she was in fact a fine poet, & a smart/interesting person.
O
"if I were Silliman, and I saw the Slow Poetry feature at Big Bridge, I would have trouble sleeping ..."
Not if you tried reading it, you wouldn't.
Joseph
At the risk of seeming too "balanced" (read: wussy) it seems to me that there are points on both sides--though Silliman's text admittedly sounds repellent. Many poets benefit, not from some sort of ideological unity, but from an informal association in which work is shared and mutually criticized, ideas exchanged, and talent encouraged. I am thinking of the New York Schools (first and second) but also the group of poets around Reverdy and the review Nord/Sud, the Russian Futurists, the "Generation of 1927" that included Lorca, Alberti, Machado, Guillen, and others.
And then there are the solitaries, like Blake, Dickinson, Rimbaud, and others mentioned, who need to isolate themselves in order to break through into what they need to do.
Poets come in all types, with a very wide variety of needs. Whatever nurtures their infinite variety is good.
Bravo......yer right in there and have hit a line drive right past the shortstop who is dumbfounded by his own failure to realize he was actually playing baseball.
Well done. Loved this.
yez, sure. but individualism is hardly something we need to champion in this country at this time. or at any other, ennit.
Jeez,
I only came to this because an old friend and fellow poet in SF sent me a link to the blog post of Victoria looking out over the city. She seems to have provoked quite a little turf tiff.
I first met Victoria in 1969 and became close to her whole family. She read with our poetry group in Burlington in the 70's and even helped out at our house-raising in in 1980 when I myself became more farmer than poet. I can vouch for her unique vision and voice absolutely, and will miss her dearly. Here is a link to a photo from 1970 in East Palo Alto. May there be other ladies out there with the style of Miss Rathbun!
http://justsopress.typepad.com/Eve-EPA.jpg
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